If you&#x27;re using Google DNS servers that seems to happen, I switched my phone back to the ISP DNS and it started working again.

It does that for me too from time to time. I wish I knew why.

<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=36970702">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=36970702</a>

I&#x27;d love to know too — I&#x27;ve never been able to use this site

Apparently there are ongoing hostilities between the archive.* websites (archive.today, archive.is, archive.ph, etc.) and Cloudflare.  Try changing your device&#x27;s DNS settings to something other than Cloudflare (1.1.1.1) to access the archive.* website.  For example, Google&#x27;s DNS is at 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4 .  If your browser has DNS-over-HTTPS enabled, add an exception for the archive.* sites.  (I believe Firefox has it on by default and I had to add exceptions for three or four of the archive.* sites to be able to use them).

temporarily deactivating blokada resolves the issue for me

Why does this site always captcha loop on my phone?

That doesn&#x27;t seem to have captured the relevant new bit, hidden behind a &quot;Show more&quot;.

<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.ph&#x2F;KRU47" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.ph&#x2F;KRU47</a>

Kind of my point. His mother, as part of her role as a professor of legal ethics, wrote a paper or two in support of consequentialism - that only the consequences of ethical actions are what is important. The issue with this, is that one can&#x27;t tell in advance what they are, especially if it leads one to becoming completely ethically bankrupt while hoping for the best of all possible outcomes.

A bunch of average people who put their money into FTX too. Consider all the advertising.

Do teach your kids not to steal from rich people, lest there be real consequences

Extremely prescient exchange between SBF and Tyler Cowen:COWEN: Okay, but let’s say there’s a game: 51 percent, you double the Earth out somewhere else; 49 percent, it all disappears. Would you play that game? And would you keep on playing that, double or nothing?BANKMAN-FRIED: With one caveat. Let me give the caveat first, just to be a party pooper, which is, I’m assuming these are noninteracting universes. Is that right? Because to the extent they’re in the same universe, then maybe duplicating doesn’t actually double the value because maybe they would have colonized the other one anyway, eventually.COWEN: But holding all that constant, you’re actually getting two Earths, but you’re risking a 49 percent chance of it all disappearing.BANKMAN-FRIED: Again, I feel compelled to say caveats here, like, “How do you really know that’s what’s happening?” Blah, blah, blah, whatever. But that aside, take the pure hypothetical.COWEN: Then you keep on playing the game. So, what’s the chance we’re left with anything? Don’t I just St. Petersburg paradox you into nonexistence?BANKMAN-FRIED: Well, not necessarily. Maybe you St. Petersburg paradox into an enormously valuable existence. That’s the other option.

And if you teach them about expected value, also teach risk of ruin.

The consequences were in fact catastrophic for SBF, so this surely can&#x27;t be a demonstration that consequentialism is bad. If a magic oracle (that&#x27;s always been right before) had told SBF that this was going to happen, he presumably wouldn&#x27;t have done it, because as a good consequentialist he would recognise that its consequences were bad for him.He literally told us the problem, at least once, when he appeared on Conversations with Tyler well before all this came out. He said himself that he would fall victim to the St Petersburg paradox:&gt; COWEN: Then you keep on playing the game. So, what’s the chance we’re left with anything? Don’t I just St. Petersburg paradox you into nonexistence?&gt; BANKMAN-FRIED: Well, not necessarily. Maybe you St. Petersburg paradox into an enormously valuable existence. That’s the other option.(When I listened to it at the time, I didn&#x27;t believe he could possibly believe this, because it&#x27;s so patently absurd. I even remember exactly where I was at the time that I heard him say this on the podcast, it stuck out so badly. But it turns out he did believe it!)

What part of consequentialism tells you anything Sam from getting involved into cryptocurrency to going on a media tour did was a good idea?

Don’t teach your kids Consequentialism folks.

This was a pet project for a number for very wealthy and powerful criminals. SBF likely had a decent understanding of his role as the fall guy.

I understand his dad seemed to be intimately involved.  How did he avoid prosecution?

Brock Turner got probation.I&#x27;d rather go to prison than go on probation. I know a cop that feels the same way.The people that think he got off easy don&#x27;t know how awful probation is.

115 years maximum. I haven’t been following the judge closely enough to have a feel for how much they’re going to throw the book vs let him off but I have to imagine it’ll be the book given his attitude throughout. But that one rapist, Brock Turner, did like a year of community service so you never know.edit: Also seeing 110 years, TechCrunch said 115 here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;techcrunch.com&#x2F;2023&#x2F;11&#x2F;02&#x2F;sam-bankman-fried-found-guilty-on-all-seven-counts&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;techcrunch.com&#x2F;2023&#x2F;11&#x2F;02&#x2F;sam-bankman-fried-found-gu...</a>

Prior to justice-by-committee a lot of societies didn&#x27;t have jails. Either what you did was so bad we need to end your life or you need to find a way to repay it even if you have to work for free as a slave to earn the money.I don&#x27;t think that would work today, but what we have today doesn&#x27;t work either.

It seems likely that the FTX creditors will be made whole or nearly whole. This is in large part due to FTX&#x27;s investment in Anthropic that did a 5X[1].1: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;coinscreed.com&#x2F;ftx-creditor-claims-break-50c-as-buyers-made-whole.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;coinscreed.com&#x2F;ftx-creditor-claims-break-50c-as-buye...</a>

While I agree with your skepticism about imprisonment equaling justice, one element to consider is whether a victim of a crime can ever be &quot;made whole.&quot; Even if a victim was to receive 100% material reimbursement, the act of being victimized can cause changes in life that look a lot like opportunity costs. It doesn&#x27;t surprise me then that we as a capitalist society look to imprisonment (the ultimate infliction of opportunity cost) as a sort of ethereal or &quot;karmic&quot; reimbursement (even if I don&#x27;t agree).

&gt; Have all of the people scammed been brought whole?I know zero details on where exactly the money ended up, but I have to imagine someone dumb enough to try and pull this off would have also effectively shredded a huge chunk of the stolen funds.

&gt; I&#x27;ve never understood how someone being incarcerated has become considered justice.Because, at least for Americans, there is a retributive mindset. &quot;You did wrong, now I want you to hurt&quot;; ergo, when it happens, they consider it justice.As opposed to repairing the victim&#x27;s situation and&#x2F;or attempting to reform the actor&#x2F;criminal into a more trustworthy&#x2F;desirable member of society.

Yeah if they’d just let him go he’d go right out and make everyone whole again. He’s going to jail to hopefully keep other people from doing similar things. I’d like to see more jail for white collar crime - otherwise it’s just gambling.

Depends on how you define the word.&quot;Justice is the ethical, philosophical idea that people are to be treated impartially, fairly, properly, and reasonably by the law and by arbiters of the law, that laws are to ensure that no harm befalls another, and that, where harm is alleged, a remedial action is taken - both the accuser and the accused receive a morally right consequence merited by their actions&quot;<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.law.cornell.edu&#x2F;wex&#x2F;justice" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.law.cornell.edu&#x2F;wex&#x2F;justice</a>

I guess those people define justice as an eye for an eye. I see your point though.

unfortunately people don&#x27;t just steal large sums of money and sit on it. it&#x27;s rarely possible to make the victims whole without unwinding a web of (plausibly) good faith transactions involving others. having the perpetrator&#x27;s transgressions officially recognized and issuing a sentence that may deter others is about as good as it gets.

If someone steals $100 from me, and then a friend feels bad for me and gives me $100, that isn&#x27;t justice.I think the historical use of justice has nothing to do with the victim being made whole - and not sure that word usage is a useful concept here.

While I agree that much more focus should be given to helping victims and much less to retribution, deterrence is also a key pillar of the justice system and should definitely be exercised here. It&#x27;s likely not possible to make all victims &quot;whole again&quot;, but we can make up for that by &quot;making an example&quot; to other potential criminals, showing them the &quot;danger&quot; of committing similar crimes. If &quot;the next SBF&quot; sees the risk of life in prison isn&#x27;t worth it and decides against running a similar scheme, we&#x27;ve actually saved more people than we could&#x27;ve by only repaying damages to SBF&#x27;s victims.

I think everyone being brought whole is restitution. Justice is what a judge hands out.

&gt;Have all of the people scammed been brought whole?Can you ever make them whole? Even if you pay them back all their money, there is the period of time without, the fear and pain from losing it, and similar that cannot be undone. For other crimes, there is often a victim whose state can never be fully reverted. If this is our view of justice, then justice becomes an impossible thing which can never be achieved. Does such a stance risk people eventually no longer chasing what can never be acquired?

Not only have creditors not been made whole, no attempt has been made by prosecutors or debtors to seize tens of millions of dollars of customer funds that were paid to SBF&#x27;s close relatives for &quot;consulting&quot; or the ten million dollars he gave to his father.

Have all of the people scammed been brought whole? That would be justice. Someone sitting in jail isn&#x27;t justice. It is punishment for his actions. I&#x27;ve never understood how someone being incarcerated has become considered justice.

First time offender, I bet he gets maybe 10 years. I was optimistic that he would be found guilty, but not on the same level as Elizabeth Holmes. She could&#x27;ve killed people, SBF… I think he might actually only get maybe 10 years or less.

I think no less than 20 years but not sure about life either.SBF did not do himself any favors with his smug attitude that caused the judge himself to scold him several times during his examination. If he was a little more remorseful I could’ve seen some more leniency but the Judge did not like his attitude from what I could read following his testimony.

&gt; Sadly, we don&#x27;t get to see justice very often.A few token condemnations for the headlines is all it takes.

Explanation <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;kr8gSdJ_Ggw?t=4m32s" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;kr8gSdJ_Ggw?t=4m32s</a>Quite complex certainly

The crypto Bankman will not be Fried for a long time.

&gt; That’s not how sentencing works. You can’t just add up the counts and get a number. Federal sentencing involves a Byzantine process, starting with the federal sentencing guidelines.In what way? Deciding the sentence may be complicated, sure; mostly due to the fact that the US system (ideally) wants to be lenient on first-time or very occasional offenders and strict on habitual offenders. (Which isn&#x27;t always how it works, sadly, due to judge biases)However, once you receive your sentence, it&#x27;s relatively simple. You get a charge or multiple charges with a length of stay and an eligibility for parole condition. It then gets marked &quot;concurrent&quot; (time in prison, after the sentencing date, for other crimes counts towards its requirements) or &quot;consecutive&quot; (its time needs to be served independent of other charges). From there, you start with all of the consecutive terms lined up in order of severity and the concurrent ones stacked alongside.There are sometimes other terms for release, but they&#x27;re usually enumerated pretty well.That all being to say, your answer doesn&#x27;t really answer the person who&#x27;s asking. It&#x27;s relatively easy to figure out the release date and minimum parole date from that. In fact, both are usually listed clearly on their sentencing documents.

That’s not how sentencing works. You can’t just add up the counts and get a number. Federal sentencing involves a Byzantine process, starting with the federal sentencing guidelines. I am not even going to attempt to wade into that since it makes even federal criminal lawyers get twitchy. That said, Ken White (a.k.a. Popehat) has suggested the time in prison would be substantial. So if&#x2F;when he gets out, he’ll be elderly.

They almost always let the small fish go to get the big fish. They did the same thing when they took apart the New York Mafia in the 1980s.

We don’t know yet. They’ll get consideration for sure but it is unclear where on the Nxivm scale of sex cult enablers they’ll get. In the case of Nxivm, Raniere got life in prison but two of the biggest enablers of the sex cult, his co-founder Nancy Salzman and Smallville’s Allison Mack, are both already out of jail. Clare Bronfman who was primarily on the money and intimidation stuff was sentence to 81 months and I think that was the highest of all the accomplices who turned against him and pled out.Personally, I feel like someone like Allison Mack did way worse crimes than the uggos in the FTX polycule, but I don’t know enough about the sentencing statutes here to know if they’ll get more time or not. I feel like they will, but we’ll see I guess.

They pleaded guilty to federal felonies. I wouldn&#x27;t call it getting away with it so easy, even if after sentencing they don&#x27;t face much serious prison time. The whole point of the trial, corroborated by the &quot;kid&quot; witnesses, was that SBF was calling the shots and thus 1) his crimes were far more serious and 2) the mountain of evidence made the prosecution&#x27;s case so strong as to make the idea of a &quot;sweetheart&quot; deal for him moot.

They took the advice of their lawyers. That&#x27;s some 90% of it

How did the other FTX kids get away with it so easy? It feels like prosecutors gave them deals too generous just to get SBF convicted more easily.

What would justice look like here, to you?

Is it Justice? Who is being made whole? What wrong is being made right?Because it doesn&#x27;t look like justice. It looks like revenge. The US justice system doesn&#x27;t mete out justice, it provides revenge.

&gt; Well... this is justice.Under a punitive justice system like we have in the US—sure. It doesn&#x27;t seem to have improved anything at first glance, though.

&gt; this is justiceMeh. This is society taking revenge on an individual by locking him up and offering him no chance for redemption. Maybe that&#x27;s the best form of &quot;justice&quot; we can do for now, but let&#x27;s not celebrate it too much.

Well... this is justice. Sadly, we don&#x27;t get to see justice very often. This is life in prison, correct? I know he hasn&#x27;t been sentenced but all counts is easily several life sentences at the federal level.When do the parents go on trial? I can&#x27;t see how they make it out of this without at least having all their ill-begotten assets stripped.

No, he&#x27;s been in jail. Semantic, and a bit simplified, but basically you&#x27;re held in jail pending trial, and go to prison for a conviction.

He&#x27;s uh.. he&#x27;s already been in prison for a bit.

Y&#x27;all don&#x27;t know about deferred prosecution agreements? If they were going to do it that&#x27;s how they would have done it. Not after the trial.

I will still be surprised if he spends a single day in prison though.

I guess you can call your bank a crypto bank, and skip the audits.

Not really. No amount of auditing prevents banks from going bankrupt. It wasn&#x27;t that long ago some Silicon Valley bank became insolvent and suffered a literal bank run. And people got bailed out. Again.

Kind of see the point of parent poster “if it would be real crypto, it would never happen”.He is not wrong technically but it happened so he obviously isn’t correct either.

Yes, and they have accounting departments, and controls, and adults.

Pretty sure banks get audited to prevent this exact scenario from happening.

If it does fractional reserve banking, it&#x27;s a bank. If you can deposit currency in it and collect some &quot;interest&quot; from those holdings, it&#x27;s pretty much a bank. Every cryptocurrency exchange you can find does that. They even offer loans and everything. Therefore they are banks.

He took demand deposits and invested them. That&#x27;s banking, whether you do it as a regulated bank or not. There were banks before the current banking charter regime and there will be banks after it.

&gt; This guy created a literal bankNo he didn&#x27;t. He created a hedge fund and a crypto exchange.

I agree. However, he used a bank to steal from people. It&#x27;s not like he exploited vulnerabilities in smart contracts or whatever. He literally exploited people&#x27;s propensity to keep their money at the bank where it&#x27;s &quot;safe&quot;. Not a single person who kept their coins in their own wallets was affected by this.

It&#x27;s just stealing. You could steal from any type of company and end up in the same place.

Yes. Banks too lose everything and go bankrupt. The difference is nobody goes to jail when they screw things up. Actually the government comes and actually bails them out with taxpayer money. Bank keeps all the profits and socializes all the losses.I love what happened to this Bankman guy. It&#x27;s what I wish would happen every single time some banker screwed up with our money.

Banks invest the money too. Usually without the quotes.

He didn&#x27;t lose it all. His early investor position in one of the big AI companies alone is worth a lot. 
Not condoning SBF&#x27;s misconduct, just correcting a mis-statement of fact.

Yeah. I was under the misconception that every cryptocurrency exchange operated like a fractional reserve bank with savings accounts, loans and everything. Further down this thread, wmf set me straight. The situation is even worse than I made it seem.

Sam didn&#x27;t create a bank. If he did, this wouldn&#x27;t have been fraud and he wouldn&#x27;t be going to jail.All documentation, marketing, interviews, statements, tweets, general understanding, and government licensing had FTX implemented as a full custodial trust.FTX promised to hold any funds you deposit in safe, low-interest bank accounts or secured cryptocurrency wallets, ready to withdraw at any time. They explicitly promised to never invest them.And then Sam broke that promise, stole customer funds and invested them. And it&#x27;s not like he was planning to pay those customers interest fees if the investments paid off.That&#x27;s fraud.

is this the level of discourse we&#x27;re at? calling banks frauds when actual frauds scam people? hilarious

No, it was also a cryptocurrency problem:1. FTX got away with this for so long, in part because they weren&#x27;t subject to the auditing and scrutiny of traditional finance.2. Volatile crypto prices exacerbated the issues caused by alameda&#x27;s borrowing.3. Sam could pretend that FTX had more assets than it really did thanks to FTT, a crypto coin with no inherent value, and an artificially inflated price.This was a banking problem, sure. But most banks didn&#x27;t have this problem. The manipulated nature of cryptocurrency markets and the legal gray area it operates in facilitated this scam.

Remember: this is not a cryptocurrency problem, it&#x27;s a banking problem. This guy created a literal bank. People deposited funds in it. Instead of simply being a custodian, he took the money and &quot;invested&quot; it. And lost it all.I wish this sort of thing would happen every time bankers screwed things up. Instead the government bails them out.

Is that just based on your feelings or have you applied the sentencing guidelines to get a good estimate?

If the scale of his crimes don’t justify the max sentence, what level of fraud would it take to do so? $100B of fraud?

I doubt that he&#x27;s going to get the max sentence. I bet he&#x27;ll be out in 10 years.

That seems high. Honestly feels like a fraud in itself

The lawyer fees for the bankruptcy estate will be $1 billion (they will also come out of the customer funds)

Is it proportional? Can I go to jail for 6 months for $44 million?

mmm.. 110 years for stealing close to $10 billion

Unlocked article url:<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;live&#x2F;2023&#x2F;11&#x2F;02&#x2F;business&#x2F;sam-bankman-fried-trial?unlocked_article_code=1.7Uw.hLyG.LWjOqd66fUiQ" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;live&#x2F;2023&#x2F;11&#x2F;02&#x2F;business&#x2F;sam-bankman...</a>

Prison is it&#x27;s own kind of League of Legends

League of Legends is it&#x27;s own kind of prison

That Norwegian mass-shooter complained about not having the latest Playstation once IIRC.

Will he be allowed to play league of legends in prison?

Wrap up what things? He’s sitting in jail. Nothing to wrap up.

Why is this guy even in the country?He could have chartered a boat to Venezuela and taken a few hundred million with him.Of course, all the people he defrauded might follow him.

Another softball interview at the New York Times I’m sure.

Give him a chance to wrap things up.  He’s not going anywhere in the interim.

There’s quite a bit that goes into sentencing hearings especially if there are a lot of victims and&#x2F;or the defendant has a lot of money. All that takes time to line up.

Is there a trial for that?  I thought that he wouldn’t be tried for that due to the terms of his extradition.

There’s a second trial around the same time for all the illegal political donations he made.

Are we sure that he&#x27;ll be locked up waiting for sentencing?

Probably in a much shittier jail for those five months too.

True, although in this case he&#x27;s looking at so many years of prison time that I doubt exact number makes much difference right now.

Imagine sitting in a prison cell, for 5 months, having no idea how long you will be there. That sounds almost worse than knowing your sentence.At the end of the day he deserves everything he&#x27;s getting

Why can&#x27;t the eagles just fly them there though?

Federal sentencing guidelines are a complex formula that require visiting at least one oracle atop a mountain.

As long as it was clear a decision could be made in time, fine.But, frankly, if I were on trial by a jury of my peers, I’d appreciate it if people took their time.

I was on a jury.  We pushed it a little longer to get it to that last free lunch and make it long enough not to go back in the jury pool.

&gt; First thing we all agreed we would not be coming back on Monday…Kind of scary that this is the rigor our justice system hinges on.

Was it a slam dunk case for a prosecution, or obviously reasonable doubt?

I was on a jury recently. Deliberations began after closing statements Friday morning.First thing we all agreed we would not be coming back on Monday…

Thank you! I learned from this.Follow up - is there any kind of correlation in the gap length, between sentencing and PSR ?I could see a situation where the gap is longer than a sentence, and that would be pretty sad for the prosecuted...

A guy named Lev Dermen just got 40 years with a guidelines score of 47 (the table doesn&#x27;t even go that high). He was charged with defrauding the government out of half a billion dollars in biodiesel tax credits, went to trial and kind of like SBF all the other conspirators testified against him. That case also had destruction of evidence, witness intimidation, and at the time of sentencing the government was still trying to recover a Bugatti and a bunch of money in Turkey from him.But the number of victims and the hardship element probably means he&#x27;s looking at life.

Because there&#x27;s essentially a whole second sentencing trial. After the verdict, the Parole Office prepares a Presentence Report (I&#x27;m not sure if these are public? I&#x27;m always looking for them and never finding them on PACER†), the &quot;PSR&quot;, which is like the opening bid for the recommended offense levels and grouping. The prosecution and defense then respond to the PSR with exculpatory, mitigating, or aggravating claims, victim impact testimony, your scout leader when you made Eagle Scout, all that stuff. Only then does the judge work out what the actual sentence is.The guidelines calculations, contrary to public belief, are pretty easy! You will have a pretty good success rate just carefully reading the charged statutes in the indictment and then following the instructions in the guidelines. But the PSR, prosecution, and defense filings all take a bunch of time, and involve &quot;reporting&quot; or &quot;research&quot; or whatever you&#x27;d want to call it.That process ostensibly can&#x27;t even start until everyone knows what the precise convictions were.For what it&#x27;s worth, I think there&#x27;s a very good chance he just gets the statutory maximum penalties here, because the dollar loss and victim count numbers max out the 2B1.1 guidelines (which, for instance, cap out at $10MM in dollar losses). Attributing specific dollar losses and victim counts is ostensibly one of the things that makes sentencing take so long, but as long as it takes I think the outcome is a foregone conclusion.† Later: they&#x27;re definitely not public; there&#x27;s a whole victims rights thing about getting victims partial access to PSRs so they can be heard in the sentencing process. I guess I can stop looking for them.

&gt; I will admit that I tend to err on the side of the accusedI believe that&#x27;s what you&#x27;re supposed to do, as implied by &quot;beyond a reasonable doubt&quot; -- so good job!

Having been called upon to serve on a jury before, I will admit that I tend to err on the side of the accused, but here the guy did everything, often in his own words, to tank any reasonable defense and doubt one could have. I followed the case and shook with disbelief at some of the things that were said. I was amazed at the initially lenient treatment he got. My jaw landed on the floor when I saw python code that did not even try to hide randomized balance. And those are just the highlights off the top of my head.It is not often that I get to say this lately, but the jury restored some of my tired faith in the system in US.

“So, contrary to popular belief, the internet is not some big truck that you can just dump something on a la Ted Stevens; it’s more of a … series of tubes?”‘That is correct.’

&gt; to explain that “the internet uses wires”I wonder if they did that to avoid having to explain to the jury that wire fraud does not actually require the use of wires...

The 5 hours doesn’t surprise me.I was on the jury of a federal fraud trial with 2 defendants with 15 charges, ~30 million in losses.We were thorough and went through each count separately, including reviewing some of the evidence, and were done in maybe 8 hours spread across 2 days.We ended up with a mixed verdict: one count not guilty for both, another not guilty for one. I fully believe they were aware and committed fraud for the not guilty counts, but the prosecutor wasn’t able to cross the “reasonable doubt” threshold in our minds for those specific instances.Only thing we weren’t super careful about was the first requirement for Mail&#x2F;Wire fraud, which is “Mail and wires” were used.It was amusing that the prosecutors brought in a bank IT guy to explain that “the internet uses wires”, but not really something we questioned.

We were done in 30 minutes for a DUI case in local county court the last time I served. 25 of those minutes were spent trying to find any reasonable doubt after we all agreed on guilt.

In under five hours! The jury was home in time for dinner.One question for legal people—why is there such a long gap between conviction and sentencing? In this case, the sentence won&#x27;t be set until March of next year.

Good.I hope they go after his parents next.

Sentencing on March 28th. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;innercitypress&#x2F;status&#x2F;1720228642641330494" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;innercitypress&#x2F;status&#x2F;172022864264133049...</a>

<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;kr8gSdJ_Ggw?t=4m32s" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;kr8gSdJ_Ggw?t=4m32s</a>

Isn&#x27;t there also the possibility of concurrent versus consecutive sentencing?

Can they be served consecutively or not?i.e. Is SBF going to spend the rest of his life in jail?

Typically decided by the judge. There is a table of different degrees of crimes that have sentencing guidelines for minimum&#x2F;maximum sentence.The judge will choose where on that spectrum the sentence lies.edit: From Ars TechnicaThe five charges related to wire fraud and money laundering carry maximum sentences of 20 years each, while the two securities and commodities fraud charges have maximum sentences of five years each.

Disclaimer: not American either, but it does seem like the judge does it from what I read. Sentencing is 28 March so seems he’ll have quite some time.

Thank you! And will SBF remain in jail while awaiting the sentencing?

As others said, the judge will decide. One of the reasons for the delay is the preparation of the Pre-Sentence Report (PSR) that a parole officer will prepare. There&#x27;s also time to argue about mitigating and exacerbating factors by the lawyers on both sides.

<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.americanbar.org&#x2F;groups&#x2F;public_education&#x2F;resources&#x2F;law_related_education_network&#x2F;how_courts_work&#x2F;sentencing&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.americanbar.org&#x2F;groups&#x2F;public_education&#x2F;resource...</a>

I&#x27;m not too familiar with the American system, could someone please explain how after the verdict does the sentencing work? The judge is the one who will now decide the sentence? And how long does that decision take, so when will we know what the consequences of the guilty verdict actually are? (For example, how many years in prison, or not).

The judge will not in fact have to abide by the guidelines, which are advisory, and are especially advisory in sui generis trials like this where the damages and victim counts blow out the guideline charts.

&gt; The judge will have to abide by the federal sentencing guidelinesThe judge will probably adhere to the sentencing guidelines (and will almost certainly use them as a starting point if not), but the guidelines are, like the Pirate Code, &quot;more what you&#x27;d call guidelines than actual rules&quot;. The Supreme Court has ruled that the judges are constitutionally empowered to depart in either direction from the guidelines sentences within the statutory minimum and maximum for the offenses on which the offender is convicted.

We don&#x27;t know yet, sentencing is separate from the trial that determines innocence or guilt.Now there will be another hearing in March during which the judge will consider all of the evidence (even that which wasn&#x27;t allowed in the original trial) to determine what his punishment should be.The judge will have to abide by the federal sentencing guidelines which specify the punishments and severity they can apply but otherwise it&#x27;s a matter of their discretion.

Let&#x27;s just say he&#x27;ll have a lot of time to play LoL

From an altruist perspective, he will meet so many more people in jail where the Net Opportunity to Max Out moral value is huge. He would never get this opportunity in the real world. Smart move.

He can console himself with the pseudofact that there&#x27;s a universe in which he won.

I wonder if a valid option could have been to plea guilty and throw himself at the mercy of the court to receive a lesser sentence.

I feel in the federal system, they&#x27;ll offer pleas to everyone under you to get to you. But once they&#x27;ve got to you, you&#x27;re the target, and there&#x27;s little motivation to let you plead out.Perhaps the only one (potentially, and not trying to derail this) might be Donald Trump (but I also have a hard time seeing him accepting a plea deal on the current raft of bullshit around him).

I don’t think he was ever offered a plea deal

He still has, I think, the option of cooperating with prosecution to achieve a 3-level reduction in his sentence, which will involve him pleading guilty. That could take his sentence down from infinity to infinity-15 months or so.

He was very likely not offered a plea deal.

He got his first taste finding an arbitrage between Japanese and US bitcoin prices, that made him 30 million in a month.Allegedly, a lot of the squandered FTX funds went to Alameda, his other company where he made similar bets, except they didn’t work out.

Like many of his strategies at FTX, his high risk approach to this trial for a high value payout (taking no plea deal and getting out with no charges) hasn’t worked out.I wonder if he himself is accepting of the outcome and isn’t already scheming or relying on another all-in gamble.

Well, they got Martha Steward so there’s that…&#x2F;s

If you know any, you can blow the whistle on them. You could be in for a nice pay day.

Insider traders are the “real crooks”? That’s pretty far down one side of the abstract harm spectrum.

Again, justice is served for a small, very small, subset of the white collar criminals.   Bring the real crooks (e.g. insider traders etc.) in for justice.

Isn’t rule 1 of trading that it doesn’t matter if you’re right if the timing is wrong?

Could have? FTX still owns that investment into Anthropic and the bankruptcy proceedings are sorting it out.

Founders&#x2F;Owners should dilute and return the principal.

It seems to me that FTX was just doomed to fail because of the way they operated. This would only have given them the time to do more damage.

<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;time.com&#x2F;6330323&#x2F;sbf-trial-biggest-bombshells&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;time.com&#x2F;6330323&#x2F;sbf-trial-biggest-bombshells&#x2F;</a> - interesting in this article showing what Alameda spent their stolen money on is that they made a $500million bet&#x2F;investment on Anthropic, who Google just committed to investing $2billion into. Could have turned out great!

Every jury orders food from local restaurants lol

lol I mean they&#x27;re barely paid for their time they might as well get a pizza as a treat.

&quot;He is guilty and this pizza sucks. Not going to hang around for another. Let&#x27;s get this done.&quot;On a serious note - not sure how much you get compensated on Juries but in Australia it is not that much if you work as a software dev, so staying on a Jury for 8 weeks could mean even not being able to pay your mortgage for some (yes you should have savings but...). I am sure there is a financial incentive to finish these things quickly?

The jury actually requested to read some of the evidence around an hour before they finished.

I had an experience a lot like this when serving on the jury for an assault case. Assistant DA was incompetent, we all agreed save one person, who declared ‘we’re not going to be one of those juries that deliberates for just five minutes’ and that ‘I wouldn’t want to run into either of them in a dark alley’ and, after I told everyone to quiet down because he was going to convince us the man was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, ‘there’s no sense of justice.’

IDK seems like due diligence to me to prevent the hungry judge effect (or to forestall claims towards it being the cause for the sentence): <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Hungry_judge_effect" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Hungry_judge_effect</a>

in high school we had a mock jury of sacco and vanzetti and everyone voted them guilty so they could leave early. i was the only one against it.

I&#x27;m assuming it went like this:&quot;So this guy is guilty right?&quot;(10x other Jurors) &quot;Agreed&quot;.(That one &quot;For Fairness&quot; Juror) &quot;I dunno, we&#x27;re sending this guy to jail for an awfully long time. I think we need to think it over a bit longer.&quot;&quot;Fine, Lets get pizza&quot;.* 4 hours later *&quot;Okay, we thought about it some more. He&#x27;s guilty right?&quot;(11x other Jurors) Guilty.-----------At least, I&#x27;m amused by the thought of a &quot;reverse 12 Angry Men&quot; style setup, where everyone agrees upon the same premise (that a quick decision is a bad idea for everyone), but the additional time thinking changed nothing.

That almost sounds like a made-up joke, but I guess it&#x27;s a free government-subsidized pizza dinner.

They should have done a Homer Simpson and gone for the free hotel:<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=stIvLRJcqCE">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=stIvLRJcqCE</a>

We detached this subthread from <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=38122206">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=38122206</a>.

No, they had pizza: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;tolstoybb&#x2F;status&#x2F;1720228218672988667?t=t-A7Rh-lUHZnEqKokVfdUQ&amp;s=19" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;tolstoybb&#x2F;status&#x2F;1720228218672988667?t=t...</a>

Probably. It&#x27;s up to the judge, but typically post-conviction release has a higher bar than pre-trial release. So since SBF was detailed pre-trial, it&#x27;s very likely he&#x27;ll be detained post-conviction as well.

Will he be held in custody before sentencing?

But are any of those countries fun? Russia ain’t exactly fun. China?

Also he was stupid, any other billionaire would have relocated to a country that does not have extradition treaty with the US.

Epstein probably had to much dirt on to many powerful people.

He&#x27;s a lesser evil. The only reasons why he went down were: 1. because he&#x27;s not a greater evil, he didn&#x27;t get dirt on people who can bring you down is a great way to never be brought down (Epstein is an anomaly); and 2. he did it publicly, there are about 2500 known billionaires in the world and estimated another 1000 that have assets that cannot be accounted for determine net worth accurately; he should worked on getting into that latter crowd of &quot;shadow billionaries&quot;.

absolutely shocked! his iron clad defense on the stand was infallible!11joking aside, glad this joker is going to rot in a federal prison. Even if it&#x27;s &quot;club fed&quot;

Very doubtful he&#x27;ll do more than 20 years.

&gt; ...now that witness tampering is off the table?It&#x27;s not off the table. He may still face a trial on the remaining charges of campaign finance fraud and foreign bribery.

No, it&#x27;s just close to the campus and possibly in Stanford itself (neighbouring Palo Alto) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Stanford,_California" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Stanford,_California</a>. Stanford used to help professors buy subsidised housing in Professorville but from what I understand these have all been bought and sold in the usual housing market now.<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Professorville" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Professorville</a>

Isn’t the home in some way owned by Stanford?

Does anyone know whether he will be re-bailed to his palatial parents&#x27; home in Palo Alto now that witness tampering is off the table?

It will depend if the convictions are served concurrently or consecutively. You&#x27;re right about the 85% rule for federal convictions though.

It&#x27;s a federal case, so that&#x27;s not possible. He must serve at least 85% of the final sentence.

Life in prison seems extreme. Im going to randomly guess sentencing will be 25 years and he&#x27;ll be out in 15.

There&#x27;s a RICO prosecutor in GA who&#x27;d love to sit down with the SBF prosecutors to take notes.

I wondered the same thing. Maybe the retired investment banker had been involved only in conventional banking and had no connection to crypto or other more speculative investments.

I was thinking about that too. It is NYC after all, lots of investment bankers to be found

Do we know the details of the jury selection? I heard the lawyers only have a limited number of arbitrary strikes, maybe they spent them all on other jurors even worse for their position.

My understanding is the prosecution most of all wants to avoid &quot;empathetic&quot; jurors, people like social workers, artists, etc who cause hung juries because they randomly decide &quot;this person deserves another chance!&quot;So they will hold their noses and allow the investment banker if they have to

They only have so many peremptory challenges in the jury selection process. Maybe there were others who were even more problematic, or he was challenged for cause and the judge denied it.

&gt; A high school librarian, a retired investment banker and a Metro North train conductor: Sam Bankman-Fried’s fate is in the hands of a diverse group of jurors who sat through weeks of scathing testimony against the former cryptocurrency mogul.Maybe I watch too much TV, but I wonder how the investment banker was allowed to stay on Jury. I&#x27;ve heard mostly anecdotes that lawyers do everything in their power to get experts on subject matter out of the jury

&gt;some people want to issue a crypto token that represents claims on the estateWhat could possibly go wrong? :D

Spoiler alert: it will be sold off to satisfy the debts of the bankrupt corporation. That&#x27;s SOP for bankruptcy court, and it would take an extremely persuasive case to convince the court to do otherwise.

i dont get why the shares in the investment isn&#x27;t just divvied up to each individual investor, and let them make a choice to sell or not. And if there&#x27;s transaction costs involved in selling small amounts, it could be aggregated before divving up, and those who wants to sell can collectively sell and save on costs.

With, of course, the minters of that coin taking the majority of the claims 
&#x2F;s

That reminds me, it&#x27;s been nearly two months now since we heard from either Kyle Davies or Zhu Su...

So, effectively, some kind of &quot;FTX Crypto-themed ETF&quot;?

I&#x27;ll create a new crypto token for them for 5% of the net worth. Give me a call FTX administrators.

It&#x27;s being debated in the bankruptcy court. Some creditors want to sell it off and others want to let it ride. Because this is crypto, some people want to issue a crypto token that represents claims on the estate.

I wonder how that works. It’s still private so would they have an auction or something?

In a slightly different universe, the literally criminal risk might have worked a little longer.Then again, GenAI perhaps undermines the notion of NFTs and &quot;digital art&#x2F;assets as valuable fungible commodities.&quot; It was really wierd seeing Stable Diffusion take off as NFTs were collapsing... so maybe there is no universe where FTX fakes it until they make it.

Much like the infamous FTT token, just because it’s worth that much on paper doesn’t mean that is what you could sell it for today. I say this as a person with chunks of stock in a few private companies.And obviously for the people impacted, it’s quite a loss to get all your money over a year after you tried to withdraw it, even if you do get it all.

Can a $3B nominal stake in Anthropic actually be liquidated for $3B?

If I&#x27;m a creditor in FTX, it&#x27;s a pretty big gamble, and I&#x27;m definitely not sure I&#x27;d be willing to settle for &quot;sure, give me some shares in some AI company...&quot;. A significant chance that value craters, after all.

Someone has to buy and liquidate all that stock. Seems unlikely.

Looking online I see reports that FTX owes its creditors $3B. If Anthropic has 6.5x then the initial $500 million is now worth $3.25B.Is it actually possible that all creditors will get their money back? Pretty crazy if so.

could you show us how to look up this info? its fascinating and as a financially savvy trader i&#x27;m surprised i was never taught this in business school

In fact, there&#x27;s a significant market right now for purchasing FTX claims precisely because of this Anthropic investment. The bet is that you can buy the FTX claim for 35 or 40 cents on the dollar, and get 75 or 80 cents on the dollar if the Anthropic value gets unlocked during the bankruptcy process.

Smart investor that Sam! I guess the new bubble pays off the old one.

How do you know FTX only lost 3-4 billion?

They&#x27;re going through normal bankruptcy stuff and may liquidate the Anthropic stake. It looks at this point like there&#x27;s likely going to be money enough to pay all creditors, which is just hilarious.

Interestingly, FTX made a $500 million USD investment in Anthropic; supposedly, this was made while Anthropic was valued at $4.6 billion (unconfirmed). Now, Anthropic is nearing $30 billion.Anyone know the latest on this? Is FTX going to sell that stake off to pay back the debts?[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.businessinsider.com&#x2F;sam-bankman-frieds-anthropic-stake-wholly-irrelevant-prosecutors-2023-10" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.businessinsider.com&#x2F;sam-bankman-frieds-anthropic...</a>

Sam Bankman-Fried Convicted