&gt;does everything need to be hyperbolic virtue signalingYes. And our tax dollars fund it.

Agreed. Maybe sunshine exploitation maximization act would be more accurate.

Until your constituents are vampires. Or you sold short sunglasses stock.

That is pretty funny.  Don’t want to be caught voting against the Sun

The old art of the backronym was once florishing in the IT sector ... but like so many fun things, it eventually got axed by corporate.Tag Regulations Understandable To Humans - TRUTH Act

Aren&#x27;t there some legislatures that have guidelines on promoting neutral naming of legislation, in order to reduce the marketing or manipulation value of act titles?It does seem like the &quot;AWESOME Goodness Act&quot; or &quot;CUTE Puppies Act&quot; phenomenon is especially strong here in the U.S.

I would love someone to propose a bill that requires the elimination of hyperbolic virtue signaling from all future bills, perhaps as an additional step in whatever pipeline is used to produce bills.Just need a hyperbolic virtue signaling name for it!

It&#x27;s not a bad thing, but in the eyes of people who genuinely believe they do not do it.

Virtue signalling usually is juxtaposed with being virtuous for its own sake: Those who have to tell everyone how good&#x2F;enlightened&#x2F;progressive they are usually aren&#x27;t.

&gt; When did virtue signaling become a bad thing?I&#x27;ll offer no commentary on whether &quot;Sunshine Protection Act&quot; is virtue signaling, but I think virtue signaling is less &quot;talking about having done virtuous things&quot; and more &quot;talking about doing virtuous things with the intent to gain social capital&quot;. It&#x27;s the facade, the ulterior motive that most people balk at. In that sense it has always been a &quot;bad&quot; thing.

It&#x27;s a bad thing when they are passing laws that violate your privacy but call the act &quot;the protect the children act&quot; - I think this is the habit OP was referring to

Virtue signaling is a problem when it injects a moral aspect into areas that are disputed or subjective.In this case, it frames the issue as the enlightened who want to&quot;protect people&#x27;s access to sunshine&quot; against the evil forces of darkness.In reality, there is no moral highground, good guys, or bad guys.Some people simply like sunshine at different times. It would be nice if we could act like adults and start from this premise. We can try to come up with a solution for how to set our clocks without claiming the preference of the other side is illegitimate or morally bankrupt.

When you end up with bills called things like the &quot;Patriot&quot; that whitewash the dangerous capabilities of the laws and at the same time create a name thats immune to criticism.Obviously ending DST isn&#x27;t like that, but you have SOPA, EARN IT, etc, etc.I believe this kind of branding should have no place in legislature.

Virtue signaling the act or virtue signaling the term?Hollow signaling has always been crap as far as I&#x27;m concerned. The term became a dirty word in left leaning circles and a slight pejorative in right leaning ones in the last ~10yr or so which IMO is a shame because it describes a wide variety of modern behavior and there is no good replacement.

When did virtue signaling become a bad thing? If the goal of the act is to protect people&#x27;s access to sunshine, why not say as much -- at least the act has a human readable name.

I find the term &quot;vice signaling&quot; is often appropriate in these contexts:<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Virtue_signalling#:~:text=%22vice%20signalling" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Virtue_signalling#:~:text=%22v...</a>

Nothing these days sounds more like virtue signaling than calling things out as virtue signaling.

As much as our Congress annoys me, I think it&#x27;s possibly a little tongue in cheek in this case. Because if that&#x27;s the name, it would be the SPA act.

huh? What virtue is being signaled here? It&#x27;s just a marketing name.

Schools here frequently have a delayed start on winter days because of black ice on the roads. Permanent DST will only make that happen more frequently. Perhaps this will cause the school system to look into a schedule adjustment during the winter months that accounts for the reality that black ice is a problem here during those months instead of acting like it&#x27;s an unexpected situation that couldn&#x27;t be foreseen each time it happens.

It&#x27;s extra funny in this case, because the main point of those opposing this bill seems to be &quot;Won&#x27;t someone think of the children? They&#x27;ll have to walk to school in the dark!&quot;

It&#x27;s modeled after a Florida law with that name: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Sunshine_Protection_Act" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Sunshine_Protection_Act</a>Florida is &quot;The Sunshine State&quot;, so the name was a little more clever in that context. I can&#x27;t emphasize enough that I call it a little clever, not a lot clever.

&gt;Russia is the largest country in the world on permanent DST.Actually, Russia tried permanent DST, but then switched to permanent standard time 3 years later after that turned out to be a terrible idea:<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;world-europe-29773559" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;world-europe-29773559</a>

&gt;Jesus, does everything need to be hyperbolic virtue signaling.It&#x27;s a bit ironic given the current anti-Russia everything when Russia is the largest country in the world on permanent DST. If the bill had been subject to debate instead of going through so fast, I suspect someone would have brought up the Russia connection and the whole thing would have died a quick death as &quot;we don&#x27;t want to be like the Russians&quot;.

Maybe &quot;self aggrandizing&quot; is a better description of this name if you take it seriously. I just find it amusing.

Given the darker mornings that would result it’s clearly an anti-woke measure.

They&#x27;re synonyms for &quot;Daylight Savings&quot;. Slow down before accusing people making an amusing pun.

&gt;Sunshine Protection ActJesus, does everything need to be hyperbolic virtue signaling. Won&#x27;t someone please think of the children!

It will change how the morning feels in winter, but I&#x27;m OK with settling on savings time. The bill allows states like Arizona or Hawaii to stay on savings time if they&#x27;d prefer it.

I don&#x27;t care what we choose, personally, as long as we choose. This madness has to end. I&#x27;m not going to bicker about which one is kept.

If your state doesn&#x27;t like that, they can switch time zones.

It actually sets &quot;standard time&quot; to what is currently daylight saving time, and deletes DST.

True, but this keeps daylight savings permanent not standard time.

Yes, but at least it is consistent.I live right by the border, on the Utah side, and driving through Arizona and Nevada is always so confusing!

Arizona is rough because even though the state is officially MST, some (not all) of the Native American tribes do DST. In some areas it&#x27;s kind of mess if you let your phone choose its timezone based off of the strongest cell tower.Arizona the state is in MST, there&#x27;s Navajo reservations in MDT, and there&#x27;s even a Hopi reservation that&#x27;s totally encircled by a Navajo reservation that doesn&#x27;t do DST.

Arizona would likely just move to Pacific time in that case

My impression (not backed by data, but I did grow up in Arizona) is that it has much closer economic, social, and cultural ties to California than it does to the Mountain states, so it would make sense to stay at -7.

Arizona only goes by Mountain Standard time (UTC -7:00). If Daylight savings time becomes permanent will Arizona always be an hour off from the rest of Mountain time zone?

This is excellent. With the rise of air conditioning, daylight savings has considerably less electricity savings than it used to. It will also make timekeeping more consistent. I have lived in Arizona for the past few years and it is pleasant to know that you will always be at UTC-7:00.

Would this impose any action on individual states or would this only give them the green light to implement it?

The House undoubtedly will opt to keep standard time permanent.The committee negotiating a unified bill will settle for a compromise of keeping standard time for 8 months of the year and daylight savings time for 4 months of the year on odd years and reversing the proportion during even years.There will be intense discussion about whether to do anything special for leap years. After several months of back and forth, someone will point out that there are also leap seconds and leap microseconds, leading to further debate.The bill will lapse.

Nothing.  The House has yet to act, and we don&#x27;t know if Biden would sign it.

Does non OS software usually need to care about timezone?

It means software updates for all the things!

Please tell me there is more than one person

Nothing. The guy who runs tzdata will be busy. Various things that hardcoded DST will break in six months. Hundreds of millions of people won&#x27;t have a sleep disruption in the fall. Other countries may follow suit. Etc.

Maybe the middle States, but in the northern states you go to school in the dark and get home in the dark.

Daylight Savings has real effect on the northern states than southern states.One of the arguments for Day light savings change is that -- it would still be dark during the time kids go to school in winter, early spring and late fall, many places in US will not have Sun rise at 8:00am. No matter how much we may be removed from the nature -- our wakeful hours are directly impacted by Sun rise and Sun set. On the other side, there are discomforts in moving the clock twice a year across the board.

Hopefully, that we never have to set our clocks back in the fall.... or EVER AGAIN.Please let this pass before &quot;fall-back&quot;

What does this mean in terms of short-term, real-world effect in the US?

Having kids, I would have them in a lot of activities and it was a big difference if there was daylight in the evening versus being dark.

This adds an hour more darkness in the morning. Schools start earlier than most jobs, so the kids are bearing the brunt of this. If I was a kid, I&#x27;d certainly be grumpier about waking up and less alert.

Are you saying that there&#x27;s a threat to our children from lack of adequate daylight?  And I am just finding out about it now??

That might be the funniest comment so far :-)

The hooray the Senate is saving our daylight I&#x27;m glad somebody is.  Take care so much what would we ever do if they didn&#x27;t save this daylight for us.  Maybe they can take some and put it in a lock box for when we need it most.

&gt;probably just a configuration update.famous last words

The zoneinfo files describe the rules, past, present and future

Oh, we&#x27;ve changed them so many times at this point. In the 2000s we changed the dates that we move the clocks back and forth.This is probably just a configuration update.

Any software using an IANA zone (e.g., America&#x2F;New_York) shouldn&#x27;t have any trouble. But any software that uses zone labels like EST might do the wrong thing, since EDT is being renamed to EST but will still have EDT&#x27;s offset.

Which production-ready datetime library doesn&#x27;t use zoneinfo? There should be no need to patch otherwise there would be quite a lot of patching happening each year. The current version is 2021e, meaning it&#x27;s the 5th iteration for 2021.Notably Fiji decided to not use DST in 2021&#x2F;2022 but apparently plans to resume using it afterwards.

WA and OR already did permanent daylight savings time, same as CA.  All 3 states were just waiting for the federal government to allow them to change.

Honestly.... California already approved a measure to do this (there are a bunch more steps to make it actually happen). So, this is WAY better than if WA&#x2F;OR were an hour apart from CA for half the year. Also, Seattle&#x2F;Portland (etc) would suddenly not be America&#x2F;Los_Angeles timezone anymore.

True but hopefully this would be &quot;the last time&quot; in the US for this sort of thing.

Incoming mass patching of any and all Date&#x2F;Time libraries

Depending on how far north you live, it&#x27;s academic at best; it&#x27;s dark to and from work.We&#x27;re already going to work in the dark in the morning in winter, why will it matter if its dark later?

Dusk is the most dangerous time to drive, and driving is the most dangerous thing most of us ever do. Standard time guarantees most rush hours, meaning most of our driving, will occur during part of dusk. Permanent daylight saving reduces the amount of rush hours that occur during dusk.

So more dark hours in the morning when it&#x27;s more dangerous.

I love this. I&#x27;d even go as far as to support permanent double daylight saving time. Let&#x27;s get those daylight hours in the evening where they can do some good!

Changing the clocks is a lot of hassle for dubious benefit.

it&#x27;s good that it&#x27;s going away because switching DST to ST or vice-versa is correlated with a huge economic deficit and an influx of health issues.The severe disruption in schedules is correlated with triggering depressive episodes (great when we&#x27;re going into winter!) and increase in obesity.What&#x27;s more: the fact that we all do it syncronously and it negatively affects our mood means that there&#x27;s a &quot;DST meanness&quot; wave that washes over cities during autumn and spring.

The purpose of DST was to give people extra daylight time during the summer when people wanted to do things outside and needed the sun to do it.  Like working their fields, etc.  It’s not as necessary now that we have electric lighting and farm tractors.

extra hour of daylight after work in the north, during the winter the sun sets at 4pm in some places

“In Sweden, researchers found an average 6.7 percent greater risk of heart attack in the three days after the spring change. Inspired by that finding, a group of U.S. researchers conducted their own study and determined that heart attack risk jumped 24 percent the Monday after switching over to daylight saving time. That risk then tapered off over the remainder of the week.By contrast, risk for heart attack dropped 21 percent on the Tuesday after the fall time change.”<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.heart.org&#x2F;en&#x2F;news&#x2F;2018&#x2F;10&#x2F;26&#x2F;can-daylight-saving-time-hurt-the-heart-prepare-now-for-spring" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.heart.org&#x2F;en&#x2F;news&#x2F;2018&#x2F;10&#x2F;26&#x2F;can-daylight-saving...</a>“A study of 732,000 accidents over two decades has found that the annual switch to daylight saving time is associated with a 6% increase in fatal car crashes that week.”<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sciencedaily.com&#x2F;releases&#x2F;2020&#x2F;01&#x2F;200130144410.htm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sciencedaily.com&#x2F;releases&#x2F;2020&#x2F;01&#x2F;200130144410.h...</a>

Can you explain to me why this is good. It seems like a pain, but I assume there must be a good reason for it. Does it truly save energy? Is this documented somewhere?

Won’t take effect until 2023, but good to see it happen.

The bill would eliminate Daylight Time and redefine Eastern Standard Time etc. to be the same offset they currently are during daylight time.<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.congress.gov&#x2F;bill&#x2F;117th-congress&#x2F;senate-bill&#x2F;623&#x2F;text" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.congress.gov&#x2F;bill&#x2F;117th-congress&#x2F;senate-bill&#x2F;623...</a>

A comment above states exactly the opposite.

I think you&#x27;re wrong. They really are re-defining e.g. EST to be the current DST but without yearly DST change.

Given that the US Congress doesn&#x27;t really have the social authority to do the latter...

So are we permanently going to be on &quot;{Eastern,Central,Mountain,Pacific} Daylight Time&quot;? Or are we redefining the time zones &quot;{Eastern,Central,Mountain,Pacific} Standard Time&quot;?

Really? Seems pretty straight forward. For early risers it&#x27;s nice to wake up to the sun...I think it comes down to, &quot;what do I prefer&quot;

Daylight in the morning does wonders for resetting your circadian rhythm to the actual day, rather than its internal 25-something hour day.What would naturally happen by making daylight savings time permanent is that people&#x27;s circadian rhythms would shift forward until daylight savings time basically becomes the same thing as standard time.

I prefer daylight in the morning. It&#x27;s easier for me to wake up and be alert after sunrise, and I feel like a zombie before sunrise. Don&#x27;t really care if the sun sets at 5:30 or 6:30 p.m.

Most people like to get up when the Sun is coming up or close to it. People don&#x27;t want to wake when it&#x27;s dark for another 1-2 hours. Without DLST then the Sun would come up at around 8:30 in December and January in northern states. People are up at 6:30, 7AM - waiting around 2 hours would be awful. And a waste of energy in the morning.

It&#x27;s healthier. On the surface I prefer sleeping less and not working out, but it effects my health poorly.

I prefer having more daylight in the evening. I never really understood the opposite argument.

Hot take: permenant daylight time not permanent standard time because nightowls are more common than they used to be.

Can you expand on why you don&#x27;t think this will go into effect soon? This is the first I&#x27;ve heard of this bill but given the unanimous passage in the Senste it seems odd that it would fail in the House.Also, IIRC, bills must originate in the House, which makes me think something like this has already passed there at some point.

&gt; Does the house need to pass it?Yes&gt; Will the president veto it?No&gt; When can I literally set my clock to this?2023 at the earliest, but probably much later, if ever. The legislative process is not known to move quickly.

iirc states can only choose to either participate in the biannual time-change or to be on standard time year-round.

How does that work? I&#x27;m not an American, but I&#x27;ve heard the stories about some state that has three timezone because of an Indian reservation and some other stuff. I was under the impression that daylight savings was a state matter. Don&#x27;t some states currently not observe DST while their neighbours do?What is the federal government&#x27;s role in this? Can a state ignore this (almost) law and do DST anyway?

It&#x27;s veto-proof anyway.A lot of states have already passed similar laws and are merely waiting on the Federal law to come into effect. So it&#x27;s likely to become law soon.

Does the house need to pass it?  Will the president veto it?  When can I literally set my clock to this?

Move it all twelve hours back forever, then we&#x27;ll have eternal daylight!

Let&#x27;s not be hasty; we could use math to accelerate time itself.  Right?  Right??

This was my response, too.  I have a slight preference for standard time, but anything to avoid the twice-a-year switch is appreciated.

Honestly don’t even care at this point, would take either way to end this nonsense.

It&#x27;s not wasted then, it&#x27;s quite useful. Having kids walk to school or to the bus in the dark is ridiculous. In northern areas the Sun won&#x27;t come up until 8:30AM.Not to mention the extra energy use.

I too am a night owl - but we need light in the morning more than later into the evening.  A lot of kids have weird school start times which leads the morning commute being a lot more distributed than the evening one.  Walking to the bus alone on dark streets isn&#x27;t safe for a good chunk of the population.

During the winter in the northern latitudes it&#x27;s not so early.

How can you call it &quot;wasted&quot; when it&#x27;s up to person preference. You do understand there are people who prefer being awake early instead of late right?

When it’s scarce you want to waste it on the early morning?

No, it is moved from the morning. In return for this &quot;extra hour&quot; you have to pay with waking up in the dark and doing your morning commute in the dark.I grew up in a permanent DST and I don’t have fond memories of it. Over there public health officials are actually advocating to moving back to standard time because teenagers in particular are sleep deprived. Going to bed earlier is not a realistic option as proven by experience.

This would give us an &quot;extra hour&quot; of sunlight in the evening during the winter.

Mornings are for work. Evenings are for fun.DST is just what’s needed.

An hour of sunlight from 4-5 is useless. Most people will still be working. The tradeoff is that most people have to wake up and go to school&#x2F;work in complete darkness during the winter.

Yeah, and we&#x27;re going to get sunrise at 9am in the winter.   Good lord, that is going to piss people off.

Which is what this effectively does. We can get sunset at 5pm instead of 4pm in the winter in Seattle now.Really, the choice is a tradeoff between earlier sunrises or later sunsets.

Umm no, I get up early and have free time before work and want light then. It&#x27;s a great time to be outside because it&#x27;s the coolest part of the day. Yet again society accomodates the people who can&#x27;t be bothered to go to bed on time.

Don’t worry, employers will move things back to be inconvenient again soon.

Personally, I have wanted the exact opposite. I need more light in the morning so that I can go for a run and enjoy the cool, fresh air.

As a late riser, I have never had a good time getting up before the sun. If you woke me before sunup and asked how much I would pay you to let me sleep until dawn, I would probably try to sell you sell my own mother for the privilege, if it were permanent.

How often do you &quot;want&quot; more fiber? It&#x27;s about being healthy. Waking up in the dark for 3 straight months isn&#x27;t as healthy as the alternative.

Personally, I have wanted more daylight in the evening hundreds of times in my life, at least. It&#x27;s the obvious result of average workdays ending at 5 or 6 (or later) and our &quot;free time&quot; being restricted to a sliver of daylight much of the year. But how often have I wanted more daylight in the morning? Basically never.

&gt;The amount of sunlight stays the same.Lol, no.<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Midnight_sun" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Midnight_sun</a>I know that&#x27;s an extreme, but you get the idea.

(Congrats. paxys, you got me to reply twice to you :))&gt;and there isn&#x27;t a &quot;correct&quot; answer thereFor me, personally, I like the concept that noon is when the sun is at it highest point or closest, I can adjust everything else around that.

The entire idea of DST is that it provides a nice balance between the two: still reasonably light in the morning in winter, and move some of the very early morning sunlight to the evening in summer.

I think it is wrong to ask the general public what they prefer. Most people honestly don’t know, and if they do, they might prefer the option which is more harmful for their health without realizing it.Much better is to ask public health experts. Which will look at sleeping patters, at risk groups, etc. I’m particularly worried about teenagers which will be forced to wake up before sunrise and are unlikely to go to sleep earlier under social pressure (including from their own family).

It also varies by where you&#x27;re located in a time zone and what latitude you are at. Somewhere like Boston, you basically have dark at both ends of the day in the winter no matter how you move things around. And it&#x27;s also pretty light in the morning and light until quite far into the evening in winter. Boston should really be in Atlantic time based on longitude but it doesn&#x27;t make sense to be in a different time zone than the rest of the East Coast.

&gt; The question is whether you want more of it in the morning or the evening, and there isn&#x27;t a &quot;correct&quot; answer there.The folks at various chronobiology and sleep study societies say otherwise:&gt; The choice of DST is political and therefore can be changed. If we want to improve human health, we should not fight against our body clock, and therefore, we should abandon DST and return to Standard Time (which is when the sun clock time most closely matches the social clock time) throughout the year. This solution would fix both the acute and the chronic problems of DST. We therefore strongly support removing DST changes or removing permanent DST and having governing organizations choose permanent Standard Time for the health and safety of their citizens.* <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;journals.sagepub.com&#x2F;doi&#x2F;full&#x2F;10.1177&#x2F;0748730419854197" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;journals.sagepub.com&#x2F;doi&#x2F;full&#x2F;10.1177&#x2F;07487304198541...</a>Lots of footnotes here in this paper if you want to get into the details:* <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.frontiersin.org&#x2F;articles&#x2F;10.3389&#x2F;fphys.2019.00944&#x2F;full" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.frontiersin.org&#x2F;articles&#x2F;10.3389&#x2F;fphys.2019.0094...</a>The position papers of various societies:* <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;srbr.org&#x2F;advocacy&#x2F;daylight-saving-time-presskit&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;srbr.org&#x2F;advocacy&#x2F;daylight-saving-time-presskit&#x2F;</a>* <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;old.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;askscience&#x2F;comments&#x2F;dq2nv3&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;old.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;askscience&#x2F;comments&#x2F;dq2nv3&#x2F;</a>* <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.chronobiology.ch&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2019&#x2F;08&#x2F;JBR-DST.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.chronobiology.ch&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2019&#x2F;08&#x2F;JBR-D...</a>* <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.chronobiology.com&#x2F;impact-daylight-saving-time-circadian-clock&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.chronobiology.com&#x2F;impact-daylight-saving-time-ci...</a>* <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;esrs.eu&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2019&#x2F;03&#x2F;To_the_EU_Commission_on_DST.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;esrs.eu&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2019&#x2F;03&#x2F;To_the_EU_Commiss...</a>There seems to be a consensus on what&#x27;s &quot;best&quot;, and it doesn&#x27;t appear to by Year-round DST.I&#x27;d be curious to know what hearings, if any, were held on this topic, and with whom.

That doesn&#x27;t mean it optimizes for what is actually healthy though. Most American&#x27;s clearly want to eat unhealthy, based on our obesity rate. Doesn&#x27;t mean it&#x27;s what is healthiest though.

The amount of sunlight stays the same. The question is whether you want more of it in the morning or the evening, and there isn&#x27;t a &quot;correct&quot; answer there. Going by general public sentiment I&#x27;m willing to bet it&#x27;s more towards the latter though.

No shortage of sunlight up here in Alaska during the summer, so this will make little difference then.  I will actually appreciate having an extra hour in the afternoon during the winter.  More opportunities for some cross-country skiing after work :)

This isn&#x27;t going to effect the summer months. Only winter when we would revert to standard time. If am getting up at 7am its going to be dark I don&#x27;t care if it dark for another hour . I would prefer more day light after work

Noon shouldn&#x27;t be at 12pm. It should be at 1pm or later.

That only matters for those who keep time with a sundial…

DST makes more sense simply because we are already on DST for 8 months of the year, vs. 4 months for &quot;standard&quot; time.

Standard Time would make more sense than DST since that would mean noon is at 12pm (give or take a few minutes depending on latitude) not 1pm.

Most people have a fixed work schedule. If you work for Walmart and the store opens at 8 AM, you can&#x27;t arbitrarily decide to wake up at 8AM because that&#x27;s when the sun rises.

Just change your waking&#x2F;sleeping hours then. It&#x27;s just a number. Set your sleeping hours based on actual daylight times instead of the number on the clock.Personally I&#x27;m happy they just pick one and stick with it.

My after work bike rides basically end in the fall, so I&#x27;m happy for the change.

Not for me. I prefer timekeeping libraries to not have to be changed. Ever. If they have to, should be simplified. If simifying, it should be in a way that doesn&#x27;t cause grammatical issues.Which this does, because now DST is now the standard time.

As a computer person, I really could care less when the sunshine is. I prefer my days to be exactly 24 hours. Not 24 hours +&#x2F;- 1 hour.Also, where I live there&#x27;s a max of 16 hours of sunlight, and a min of 8 and a half. In the summer, it doesn&#x27;t matter what the clock says, it&#x27;s going to be bright when you wake up and bright when you go to sleep; so much sun. In the winter, it&#x27;s most likely dark when you get up and dark when you go to bed, not enough sun that fiddling with the clocks is going to be really helpful anyway. Maybe there&#x27;s a little more twilight in the morning the week after Halloween, and then it&#x27;s back to morning commute in the dark. And it&#x27;s pretty chilly, so while sure, I don&#x27;t want to bike in the dark, I also don&#x27;t want to bike in the cold, either, even if there is sun.

Why? I would say a large number of computer people owls, meaning they get up late and go to bed late. Permanent DST means you have to get up one hour earlier forever. Seems absolutely terrible to me.It&#x27;s also stupid from an astronomical point of view.

Absolutely. Fuck mornings. I&#x27;d rather not be awake before noon in the first place.Also, some states would have a real problem with permanent standard time. Maine, in particular really belongs in the Atlantic time zone, as standard time puts sunset way too early most of the year. Having the sun down by 4:00 sucks.

Speak for yourself, you certainly don&#x27;t speak on my behalf.

I think I speak on behalf of most computer people when I say this: we prefer our extra hour of sunshine in the evenings not mornings.

I’ll take permanent Zulu time at this point

I agree. I live in Boston and winters are oppressive in large part because sunset is at 4:30 (or earlier). For Boston at least, I strongly feel we should just move to Atlantic time and just bite the bullet on the difficulties this causes with teams elsewhere. This proposal effectively does that for Boston, but I understand why the people of Marquette would be opposed.

for that, time zone boundaries should be straight lines rather than following arbitrary political whims. then you’d only have a half hour variance at most.

People who live on the eastern extreme of a timezone likely feel quite different than those who live on the western extreme.Boston, MA and Marquette, MI are in the same time zone. Boston&#x27;s sunset today is 6:51 PM. Marquette&#x27;s sunset today is 7:55 PM. It&#x27;s no surprise that residents of each of those cities would have a different view as to &quot;what should we do about DST?&quot;

I think the idea was to give an hour of light later in the day for when people are off work.

We&#x27;re already on DST 2&#x2F;3 of the year; it&#x27;s considerably less disruptive to keep it year-round than to switch to all standard time.  Not to mention many of us find DST strictly superior given the common work&#x2F;life schedule.  In the summer, standard time would mean it gets light even more ridiculously early than it already does, so you just lose useful light, rather than having it to enjoy summer evenings outdoors.  In the winter it&#x27;s certainly more of a preference thing, but there are plenty of us who would sacrifice light in the morning for more light after work.

Then I can&#x27;t joke that &quot;it&#x27;s 5pm somewhere&quot;...

I legitimately want a time gradient. Time changes by a few minutes everyday at midnight or whenever so that the sun always rises at 8. Obviously the hardest solution, but everyone who is trying to coordinate with people has a phone so they&#x27;ll be fine and it&#x27;s not like this is a technological impossibility. Seems like having a consistent morning routine would be helpful enough to balance the downsides.

This is my dream. It&#x27;s just a number. But getting the general population to wake up at say 2130 and go to sleep at 1030...well, good luck.Also destroys the idea of a 9-to-5 job. Make it start at :30 if that&#x27;s better for the longitude.

Natural time wasn&#x27;t good enough while in agrarian society. Natural time was good enough in an unconnected society. When it took days to traverse the country, solar time worked. You couldn&#x27;t really keep pace with the sun. People were academically aware of the difference, but it didn&#x27;t mean much. The fact that it was daytime for the king of England while it was nighttime for the emperor of Japan didn&#x27;t matter. That trip would take months regardless. So coordinating events was expressed in terms where even half-day variances didn&#x27;t matter.Planes, trains, and automobiles changed all of that. That and modern communication. Today, it matters. Now if I need to talk to someone in Japan, I have to coordinate things so that we&#x27;re both awake. It matters if it&#x27;s nighttime to them. Which is why we do have a universal clock. It&#x27;s just expressed differently based on your distance from the prime meridian.But, it&#x27;s not the expression that matters.Daylight Savings Time (DST) is a very stupid way to deal with a lot of stupid people. Everyone here arguing about making people adjust schedules, etc. That&#x27;s exactly what DST is. But instead of your local grocery saying &quot;Yeah, we&#x27;re opening at 5am for these months&quot; we just tell the entire country to change their clocks. Which is the same net effect. It&#x27;s a fiction we engage in to pretend we&#x27;re not inconveniencing ourselves. And in some ways, it probably is easier this way. It&#x27;s controlled, determined, and doesn&#x27;t require a ton of signage to be changed. We already have to set clocks, so it all works out.I think a lot of the arguments about the &quot;extra hour of sunlight&quot; are kind of stupid. Because, it&#x27;s not an hour. It&#x27;s not going to be pitch black regardless. And most of what people do after work involves walking from the inside of one building to the inside of another. But then again, I wake up between 5 and 6 and go to bed between 10 and midnight.I&#x27;d prefer for it to be on Standard time year round because if you are X zones from the prime meridian, you should be +&#x2F;-X based on that. But, once again, time zones are really stupid because they don&#x27;t conform to distance from the prime meridian. Morocco is +1 UTC despite being completely to the west of prime meridian. Most of Greenland is -3 despite spanning 5 zones, with one small section actually observing UTC despite being in the zone that should be -1 and the section that is -1 actually should be observing -2.And look at the US on this map (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;upload.wikimedia.org&#x2F;wikipedia&#x2F;commons&#x2F;8&#x2F;88&#x2F;World_Time_Zones_Map.png" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;upload.wikimedia.org&#x2F;wikipedia&#x2F;commons&#x2F;8&#x2F;88&#x2F;World_Ti...</a>)Central Time is the most dominant zone going from the westernmost point of Texas to most of the Florida panhandle. Most of Texas should be -7, not -6. And so on and so forth. I bet if you &quot;fixed&quot; this kind of bullshit, more people would be in favor of Standard time year round. Or at least less opposed to it.

Why not just ditch time zones altogether and have everyone on the same clock?DST was good enough to implement while in an agrarian society, so why not the universal clock in a global connected society? Just imagine the precision.&lt;&#x2F;half-joking&gt;

It is.If &quot;people want more daylight hours after work&quot; and it&#x27;s worth making sweeping disruptive changes to make it happen...Then just make the workday from 8 to 4 instead of 9 to 5.No no, instead of making a sane clock and using whatever times we want on it, it obviously makes more sense to make a messed up clock.What other measuring implements and scales should we move around so the numbers please us better?Everything is expensive, let&#x27;s change the way any monetary value is written to be -1 based. Henceforth all prices shall be written on a scale that starts at -1 instead of 0. If a thing cost $4 yesterday, it now costs the same 4 dollars, but the price is written as $3. This will give e eryone more money! I call it permanent wallet saving prices!

I agree on permanent standard time, but just because I think it&#x27;s silly to make the words &quot;noon&quot; and &quot;midnight&quot; permanently lies. Unless someone is at the edges of an extremely wide time zone solar noon and legal noon are generally to be within 30 minutes of each other. Likewise for midnight. With time zones generally set on hour intervals that&#x27;s as good as it gets.In a &quot;daylight savings only&quot; world solar noon will instead center around 13:00 and solar midnight around 01:00. To me that&#x27;s just absurd.

The weirdest thing about DST is that from what I recall of history, it came about at a time when unions were pretty strong. I don&#x27;t know why the unions didn&#x27;t just insist on getting off an hour early at a certain time of year.Though it&#x27;s possible they were the ones paying lobbyists to get it through Congress in the first place. Sometimes paying someone else to do your dirties is the most efficient way.

In reality it means that people have to get up earlier and go to bed earlier relative to sunset&#x2F;sunrise.

The winter is when daylight is scarce, so that&#x27;s what should be optimized for.Yes but so-called Standard Time was only optimizing that for a small group - the intention was rural children walking to school could do so in daylight. And otherwise it pessimized the use of scarce sunlight by moving forward the time workers left to when it was dark.Always Standard Time might be better than awful switch but permanent Daylight Savings would offer most people who work 9-5 more sunlight over the year, the actual optimal solution.

It strongly depends on your latitude and your longitude within the time zone.There were always going to be winners and losers in this situation.

That&#x27;s not really true... with permanent DST, instead of it getting dark on the 21st of December at 4:30pm it will now not get dark until 5:30 in the afternoon. (I am not really that far north, but that&#x27;s sunset on the solstice for me)It&#x27;s also nice for me personally since my circadian rhythm seems to be on &#x27;Summer&#x27; time, all the time.CA, OR, WA and BC were all on the same page wrt to doing this so this just removes one of the blocks from making it happen.

Oh my, such a hard disagreement! In my time zone (Eastern), DST means sunset is at its earliest around 5:30PM, compared to 4:30PM in the hell that is Standard Time. I would so rather have a sliver of daylight at the end of my day!Sunrise at its latest would still be reasonable, around 8:00am, with plenty of predawn lights for kids and early risers.

If you&#x27;re a person with a normal day job or who goes to school (i.e. practically everyone), an extra hour of sunlight in the morning is wasted on the job or school; an extra hour of sunlight in the evening is more likely to be on your time.My seasonal affect disorder kicks in hard when we leave DST every winter. This is the first bit of great news I&#x27;ve heard all year.

Who cares when it&#x27;s light out. Just stop changing the time.

Standard time in June means the sun comes up at 4AM. I prefer DST, but either way let&#x27;s just stop fiddling with the clocks. Maybe we could split the difference and just fall back 1&#x2F;2 an hour this Fall? (and then just hold it there)

If you ask me we need more light in summer and winter, damn the tyranny of time.

I could think of something worse than both :)

&gt; The winter is when daylight is scarce, so that&#x27;s what should be optimized for.That is what this is doing. Make that scarce daylight available after work, when it is useful.

Such a terrible idea compared to permanent standard time.There is plenty of light during the summer, so there&#x27;s no need to optimize for that. The winter is when daylight is scarce, so that&#x27;s what should be optimized for.

Looking forward to the boost of crop production with the extra hour of daylight!

this is the first time ive felt something in weeks

Let&#x27;s hope the EU manages to follow; it seems to be in the cards, but politically tricky. This is something that has gained a lot of traction the last decade though; lots of popular support too (parents of young children will rejoice).

The Sun isn&#x27;t rising any earlier since DST is being changed for the summer

It&#x27;s total necessary and a great design. Without this then it would be dark until 8:30 in the morning during winter and the other way the Sun would rise at 4:30AM. These are both bad outcomes so we adjust the clocks so optimize these.

Is it really such a disruption? People fly across timezones all the time. Daylight savings and return to normal happen twice per year at entirely predictable times, and are modest changes – is it really so hard?

I can understand the concern of other posters about going to DST as opposed to standard time... but at this point, I just want the switching to end.  It is such an unnecessary disruption and fixing it seems so trivial.

&quot;In a Roper poll conducted in February and March, just 30 percent remained in favor of year-round daylight saving time, while a majority favored switching times again. Louis Harris polling in March showed just 19 percent of people said it had been a good idea, while about twice as many — 43 percent — said it was a bad one.&quot;<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;politics&#x2F;2021&#x2F;03&#x2F;15&#x2F;no-more-changing-clocks-history-says-be-careful-what-you-wish-daylight-saving-time&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;politics&#x2F;2021&#x2F;03&#x2F;15&#x2F;no-more-c...</a>

Or that everyone except yourself isn&#x27;t an idiot and they did in fact consider it and don&#x27;t view that worth the trouble.

Because our politics are in many ways a clown show. It probably polls well when you ask regular people who haven&#x27;t considered why we do this. That they feel sad because the Sun goes down at 5:00AM when it&#x27;s cold but don&#x27;t consider that without this then the Sun won&#x27;t come up until 8:30AM.

Timezone changes are practically a weekly thing... 9 months is a lot more warning than many other changes.

Everybody carries a phone that knows what time it is. And, looks the same sun-up or sun-down. Nobody needs to look out the window anymore.

This is exactly what I was wondering. Why do we think it will go better this time?Also isn’t 9 months a relatively short warning given all the systems that will need updates?

It&#x27;s unsafe. A child is more likely to be hit by a car when it is dark. With the current system they can leave for school and come home when there is light.

I would also note that in the northern states, children go to school in the dark (and often also come home in the dark) regardless of DST&#x2F;ST, because we hold school over winter, and we get about 8-9 hours of sunlight a day in the winter.

Better to come home in the sunlight. Even if you have indoor sports after school now you have some time to potentially absorb vitamin D. Not much absorbing you are doing in the morning shuffling to get ready for school.

Oh the children!Give me a break. Go to school in the dark, or come home in the dark. Do that one time of year, or another. It all comes out in the wash.

It absolutely is. And the Sun won&#x27;t come up until 8:30AM. No one wants their first couple hours of the day to be darkness. Secondly, it&#x27;s more dangerous for kids walking to school. And lastly we use more energy since a larger part of our day is lived in the darkness for most people.

Yes, it will be. Schools should adjust time according to the season. Time shouldn&#x27;t adjust itself according to the school.

I don&#x27;t know, it can definitely really suck having to wake up in the dark. Waking up to natural sunlight is the way.Of course the real problem is there&#x27;s just not enough light in the winter. Not much we can do about that. :-)

Are we really doing this because it&#x27;ll be light at 7:35pm?Sorry, but that&#x27;s not even close to a compelling reason to do this.See how easy it is? I can dismiss others&#x27; preferences just as easy. Waking up when it&#x27;s dark out isn&#x27;t good for people. We should rise with the sun, more or less, and &quot;time&quot; should change to accommodate that.

That article doesn&#x27;t say why it was a bad idea.Are we really rejecting this because it&#x27;ll be dark at 7:35am?Sorry, but that&#x27;s not even close to a compelling reason not to do this.

Because of paywalls, like the one preventing public access to the parade of horribles that is apparently detailed in this article I can&#x27;t read

FTA&gt; By fall, the dark mornings were apparently wearing on the American people.This is the reason for &quot;it went badly&quot;? Since that article didn&#x27;t address it, what exactly happened when we didn&#x27;t have DST?

Schools can&#x27;t really start later. Parents need to drop kids off before they start work. I guess we could have everyone start work an hour later too, but I don&#x27;t see that happening.

It worked fine 46 years ago. People bitched then &quot;about the children&quot; while insisting that schools couldn&#x27;t start later. That&#x27;s just crazy. What is different this time? It wasn&#x27;t bad before, that&#x27;s what.

You’d have to be over 60 years old to have any memory of that, and even then you would have been a kid at the time. Plus your memory gets worse as you age. So why would anyone here have a memory of that experience? The only memories we have are of DST messing up our sleep schedules twice a year for no apparent benefit to us.But more to the point, the article doesn’t really talk about why it went badly. In fact, the only thing it mentions (kids getting up too early for school) is a very solvable problem and one which should be solved regardless of DST.

Because a lot of us are only half that old?

&quot;WE&quot; didn&#x27;t do this 46 years ago.  I wasn&#x27;t born then.  Hopefully &quot;we&quot; can do a better job of handling the change this time.

We did this before. 46 years ago. And it went badly.<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.mercurynews.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;10&#x2F;30&#x2F;the-year-daylight-saving-time-went-too-far&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.mercurynews.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;10&#x2F;30&#x2F;the-year-daylight-sav...</a>Why do we have such short memories?

Not radical at all, I&#x27;ll happily take either too.

Farmers used to care, when they made broad use of their spawn to assist with harvests and chores. If the spawn gets out of school an hour earlier, that&#x27;s an hour more labor they can do before the sun sets.

the idea that DST happens for the farmers has always been pretty funny to me, because the one province in canada that doesn&#x27;t observe DST is the province that has nothing but farmland.

Which fragment of society are you thinking time changing benefits? The common one I hear is farmers. Which is complete BS. Farmers work by the sun because the plants and animals they care for don&#x27;t use clocks.<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;agamerica.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;agamerica.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time...</a>

Absolutely. Tons of labor goes into patching systems for DST and supporting and testing switchover. My experience is in the healthcare sector.

&gt; drag on the economyDo we know if this is true?Does the proposal have an estimate of the financial impact?What are we talking about here, $10M? $100B? I have no sense for it.

It also makes the timezone differences vary as different zones switch on different dates. Hopefully the whole world will come to their senses and we get rid of the changes globally so that timezone differences will be fixed.

It&#x27;s my damn oven&#x27;s time that I neglect to correct for about 3 months every single time.

I know this is hardly a radical take, but I don&#x27;t care what time it is. I can adjust my schedule appropriately. What I hate is changing the time. It makes us all sicker, causes accidents, and workers in certain professions have to work weird hours to keep up with the changes. It&#x27;s such a drag on the economy and only seems to serve a small fragment of society.

US Senate votes unanimously to make daylight savings time permanent